MyDD :: Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls

Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls

by lombard, Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:23:51 PM EST

Either that or outright dishonesty

From the CNN Indiana exit poll

Did race matter?

Whites saying "NO" Vote: Clinton 57%, Obama 43%

Blacks saying "NO" Vote: Clinton 7%, Obama 93%

The virtually incontrovertible pattern of evidence as this primary season rolls on is that, for the overwhelming majority of black Democrats, nothing else is even remotely as important as race.

OK, Obama supporters, I'm ready for your denunciations, denials, troll, and hide ratings.

Tags: exit polls (all tags)

Permalink :: 93 Comments :: Post a Comment

Obama supporter (2.00 / 1)

I think what you're seeing is that on paper there are virtually no differences between the two candidates. In that case, considering the history this country has had with race, it's not surprising to see African Americans vote overwhelmingly for the AA candidate.

by highgrade on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:27:44 PM EST

Re: Obama supporter (2.00 / 1)

Sorry, should've said this in post above - it's a bit peculiar that only now is it a problem that AA's are voting 90-10 for a candidate. I never heard anyone complain about the fact that AA's never give the GOP a chance, when they gave similar percentages to Clinton, Gore and Kerry.

by highgrade on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:29:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama supporter (2.00 / 1)

What's interesting is not that blacks are almost all voting for Obama. What's interesting is that blacks who claim race is not at all a factor in their decision are almost all voting for Obama.

The gist is that some people are sorta kidding themselves, or at least kidding the pollsters.

"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman

by Steve M on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:32:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes that is the interesting and distressing thing (none / 0)

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:33:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually (none / 0)

I think it depends on how you interpret the question.

For instance, if someone is asked if race was a factor, I can see some people approaching it as though it was asking whether you voted a certain way because of your dislike/distrust of the race of the other candidate.

That being said, I am never put much stock in any questionnaire/poll question that centers on race. People are often unwilling to answer truthfully even if it's over the phone. It's unlikely they're going to be any more truthful face to face.

by highgrade on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:36:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama supporter (none / 0)

OK its a problem that AAs never give the GOP a chance.

When racism is over they will vote 50/50 just like white people will.

As such the Democratic party should plan to lose the AA vote as racism fades.

by DTaylor on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:17:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama supporter (none / 0)

"When racism is over they will vote 50/50 just like white people will."

Actually when racism is over, white people will be voting 90% for Obama, just like the African-Americans did. :P

by Aris Katsaris on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:03:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama supporter (2.00 / 0)

So...what about women. Yes, I agree with your take on our history. What has troubled me tho has been the early and middle talk denying race was a part of it--or, if it was, the Clintons must be playing the race card and the perjorative language used against them. But, looky and looky, it really is all about race. And, it is 90% plus AA voters for Obama. Now, where are we?

by christinep on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:43:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

OK, then AAs should admit that (none / 0)

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:05:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

admit to what? (none / 0)

Are you making the demand that "White" women own up to supporting HRC b/c she's a "White" woman? Seniors own up to supporting her b/c she's old?

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.

by Carl Nyberg on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:15:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sure, why not (none / 0)

But none of those groups are voting over 90% for her. If they were, she would have wrapped-up this primary already.

You need to face reality that no one (outside of apologist white libs) is going to take any denial arguments seriously when the black vote for Obama is over 90%. If it was 70% or 75%, you might be able to make a persuadable case.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:25:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sure, why not (none / 0)

But none of those groups are voting over 90% for her.

So? Pollsters don't ask a group a question, they ask individual people, some of who happen to be black. Some of whom are women. Those people answer the question individually.

You can't condemn individual voters because others who share a certain demographic similarity vote similarly.

I agree that the answers to the race question are clearly, at the very least, uninterpretable; I don't see how this is in any way disturbing. Very hard to get good polling data on race, particularly face to face.

Also note that many people may feel that "I voted for him because of a sense of shared cultural understanding" is distinct from "I voted for him because he was black", even though the former is informed by race.

John McCain

by Mandoliniment on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:03:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Dance, dance, dance away if you like (none / 0)

But nothing you have written above refutes obvious conclusions. And most people are unpersuaded (and irritated) by attempts to confuse or explain away the obvious.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:12:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sure, why not (none / 0)

Nobody voted for 70% or 90%. Each person gave a full vote to one of the candidates.

You have no logical argument that 90% is motivated by race but supposedly 50% isn't. You can argue that it was wrong for AAs to vote for Obama at percentages of 90% but I can just as well argue that it was wrong for white people to be only voting for Obama at percentages of ONLY 50%.

One thing's for certain, that race was a factor, as seen in the demographic difference. But we don't and can't know whether it affected white voters negatively more than it affected black voters positively.

There's no "correct" percentage that indicates a lack of racism, the same way that there's no "wrong" percentage that indicates its presence.

Perhaps if race and gender hadn't been a factor Obama would have gotten a 70% across all demographics.

by Aris Katsaris on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:10:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What nonsense (none / 0)

You must be a sociologist or a member of some other left oriented discipline.

Voting for a candidate based on race is no more positive than voting against a candidate based on race. In fact, you could argue that black voters voting 90% for Clinton are doing both.

Please spare me any more of your sophistry.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:16:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What nonsense (none / 0)

"You must be a sociologist or a member of some other left oriented discipline."

Actually I'm a computer programmer. And in my own country I'm mostly a libertarian, so I don't exactly qualify for a "leftist".

It's your own fuzzy thinking that abhors me.

"Voting for a candidate based on race is no more positive than voting against a candidate based on race."

I didn't say it was more positive (though frankly
voting for the first black president isn't symmetrical with voting for the 43rd white one).

Mainly I'm just annoyed at your completely illogical belief that a 50% percentage for Obama among white voters means that white voters were less biased than black voters were with their 90% percentage.

What gives you the right to arbitrarily decide 90% is wrong and 50% is right? Among the populations most likely to be race-blind (the young, the best educated, the liberals) Obama's percentages were around 65%.

Given that example, I'm just as justified as you (more so perhaps) to say that it's any deviation from that number that indicates race-bias, whether negative or positive. White voters were just as biased against Obama (with their 50%) as black voters were in his favour (with their 90%).

They should have both gone for him with 65%-70%.

by Aris Katsaris on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:38:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I said nothing about right or wrong choices (none / 0)

The title of the diary was "cognitive dissonance on exit polls." Of the two groups responding that race was not a factor in the voting choice, one group voted in a way that, at least mathematically, was closer to a choice that was independent of the respondent's race. The other group did not.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:49:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I said nothing about right or wrong choices (none / 0)

"Of the two groups responding that race was not a factor in the voting choice, one group voted in a way that, at least mathematically, was closer to a choice that was independent of the respondent's race."

And once again, you have no way to judge that. You don't understand the concept of mathematical independence. I'm not talking about some fuzzy sociological concept here, I'm talking about numbers.

What you proved with your numbers is that race was indeed a factor. That the results were NOT mathematically independent of race. That's the ONLY thing you proved: that race was a factor. I agree with that, race is a huge factor.

But you didn't show which group was most affected. You didn't show whether it was white voters that were most affected against Obama, or black voters that were most affected in Obama's favour.

50% is no less "mathematically independent" than 90% is.

by Aris Katsaris on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:51:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Piss off (none / 0)

I understand perfectly well what mathematical independence means.

Leave me alone and stop lecturing me.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:59:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls (1.00 / 1)

I don't think you can blame people for voting their demographic. On the other hand, can Obama get the rest of the Dem party demograpghic?

Purity! Or else!

by ChitownDenny on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:28:01 PM EST

I can blame people for dishonesty (none / 0)

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:31:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I can blame people for dishonesty (2.00 / 1)

So now you're implying that not only do blacks not vote on issues, they're liars too.

by shalca on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:48:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If the shoe fits (none / 0)

And that is exactly the way the majority of white people outside of the Democratic party will see it. Enjoy the primary because the general election might get ugly.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:52:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If the shoe fits (none / 0)

That terrible, what you just said.

I can see Lake Erie from where I live, so can I please run the Navy?

by hootie4170 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:06:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I know reality is really terrible for many libs (none / 0)

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:21:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think you're taking this too personally (none / 0)

Yes, Af-Ams are supporting one of their own.

I'm not sure what the point is. That we're going to lose the general because blacks vote for Obama? Or because whites won't vote for him?

If it's the latter, that's far from proved. Yes, he has had a hard time winning white votes in Appalachia and the south. But he's won majorities among white voters in swing states and blue states like: Virginia, Maryland, Wisconsin, Iowa, Washington state. And he's almost certainly going to do the same in Oregon, South Dakota and Montana, while being competitive in other states.

Then, of course, there's the fact that he's competing for the votes of core Democrats in this race against... another Democrat. That won't be the case in the general election, when (assuming he's the nominee) I expect people will be reminded very forcefully of policy differences between the candidates on issues that matter to these voters.

I think one thing that bothers many Obama supporters is that Clinton supporters are eager to extrapolate from the way appalachia voted in the primary to say "Obama can't win white votes." That hasn't been the case in the primary. And that's a matter of results - not liberal or conservative.

(Finally, if you hate liberals so much, why are you a Democrat?)

by TL on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:42:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually I don't hate liberals. I misspoke. (none / 0)

To a degree, I consider myself one. What I hate are uber libs and leftists. Most of them seem to prefer the term progressive these days. I'm happy they do because I've always liked the word liberal and now I don't feel I have to disassociate myself from it.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:49:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I know reality is really terrible for many lib (none / 0)

Actually liberals are well known for having a superior grip on reality.

John McCain

by Mandoliniment on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:05:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls (2.00 / 1)

Interesting. By comparison, women who said gender was not important to them were split 50/50. Likewise, men who said gender was not important were also split 50/50.

I think, though, it's important to distinguish between people who view race or gender as the "most" important factor, which is kind of depressing, and those who view race or gender as one of several important factors, which simply strikes me as honest. I don't expect everyone to go around like Stephen Colbert, "not seeing race."

"Another problem we have...is that in election years we behave somewhat as primitive peoples do at the time of the full moon." --Harry Truman

by Steve M on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:30:58 PM EST

The hypocrisy bothers me (none / 0)

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:32:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The hypocrisy bothers me (none / 0)

It's hard to tell another person you voted on race, face to face like in an exit poll. That's not PC now.

by Falsehood on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:41:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't they fill these out privately? (none / 0)

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:43:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't they fill these out privately? (2.00 / 1)

Nope - at least, not what I have seen. It might differen from place to place.

by Falsehood on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:32:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for the info (none / 0)

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:19:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't they fill these out privately? (2.00 / 1)

It's generally a guy with a clipboard.

John McCain

by Mandoliniment on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:06:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for the info (none / 0)

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:19:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls (2.00 / 1)

No, it's not a question of race. They abandoned the party of Lincoln because it abandoned them and became the party that played on white racial resentment and dog whistle politics. They abandoned the Clinton's for the same reason. It was a perfectly rational decision based on self interest.

There is a reason why Pat Buchanan, Bill Kristol, the Weekly Standard, et al are now hailing Hillary as one of their own.

Take this article gushing with admiration for Hillary from the Neo-Con's main organ the Weekly Standard:

"She's running a right-wing campaign. She's running the classic Republican race against her opponent, running on toughness and use-of-force issues,"

"And she's doing it with much the same symbols."

Blacks regularly support white Democrats in the same numbers they support Obama. That's not racism it's rational self-interest.

by hankg on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:32:22 PM EST

I'll mark you down as a denial then (none / 0)

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:34:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll mark you down as a denial then (none / 0)

can I mark you down as BITTER?????

"How long have I been at this, like five weeks?" -Simple Sarah 08'

by wellinformed on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:44:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't work for the vote (none / 0)

Democrats don't need to work form the African American vote

Barack Obama doesn't have to work for the African American vote

I have no doubt that i will be jumped on for this comment but I don't think its very far off.

If a women gave it up on the first date the guy would never respect her (may even think of her as a whore). I don't think it is a coincidence that African Americans are the lowest income group (or second lowest...for now).

by Wiseprince on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:34:07 PM EST

Re: Don't work for the vote (2.00 / 1)

You ignore the fact that up until the 1960's most African American's were republican. Martin Luther King Jr's father, a pastor, was republican and voted against Kennedy.

by shalca on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:50:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls (none / 0)

Hillary gave up on the black vote two months ago. I wonder if she even tried to campaign in Gary. And her pandering to the middle on cultural issues pushed the black vote over 90% to Obama.

by reggie23 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:38:13 PM EST

Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls (1.66 / 3)

It's those kinds of comments why people are "curious" about the AA support for Barack. Hillary has never given up on AAs.

Purity! Or else!

by ChitownDenny on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:41:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls (none / 0)

She has since South Carolina

by reggie23 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:43:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls (1.50 / 2)

It's that perception that contributes to the polarizing of the party. Too many of us know the Clintons aren't racists. Bill's SC comments speak to the demographics. Calling that racist (as some in the Obama campaign have) loses Barack support from Clintonites.

Purity! Or else!

by ChitownDenny on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:47:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls (none / 0)

How do you equate pointing out that she hasn't asked for black votes since SC to calling her a racist? No one called her a racist.

by shalca on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:51:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

She has appeared at multiple black sponsored (2.00 / 1)

events since SC. She didn't toss away African Americans. They tossed her away. If it makes you feel righteous to think otherwise, knock yourself out. Personally, I think you would get more respect if you just admitted the true motivations.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:02:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls (none / 0)

You know, I don't consider what Bill said as racist. I do think Bill tried to label Obama as the black candidate. Clinton could have easily mentioned Edwards who won the SC primary in 2004. But he didn't. Instead, Bill decided to use the high black vote that Obama garnered as a weapon.

by reggie23 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:56:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He was asked about that in a SC interview (none / 0)

immediately after the primary. The question was a comparative one and he said both ran good campaigns and won. Nothing wrong with those words but they were twisted for political advantage to play into the Clinton hating Dick Morris claim. Personally, I thought Jackson was a darned good candidate in the earlier stages of the 1988 primary and any comparisons to him should not have been perceived as unflattering.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:19:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He was asked about that in a SC interview (none / 0)

"What does it say about Barack Obama that it takes two of you to beat him?" - Thats was the question asked. Clinton decided to ad-lib and he got burned. Why didn't he use Edwards who won SC just 4 years prior?

by reggie23 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:28:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't know (2.00 / 1)

Clinton is talented, but, as we know from history, he is far from perfect in his choices.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:39:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't know (none / 0)

Right. Sometimes he gets angry and lashes out.

And here, he was pretty angry because he felt he had done a lot for black people and so Hillary should have won a lot more black votes. So he decided to put them in their place by reminding them of Jesse's fate.

by TL on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:47:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Possibly true (none / 0)

But I was referring to other past, well-known, poor (and embarrassing) choices.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:00:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls (2.00 / 2)

Beyond voting for Obama because he's black, many AAs were upset by what was seen as racial comments by the Clintons a few months ago.

Race wasn't a factor in those votes. Perceived Racial insults were.

by Falsehood on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:43:53 PM EST

I'll add you to the denial list (2.00 / 1)

What you refuse to face is that white voters outside of the Democratic party will not be such apologists for blatantly race driven behavior.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 08:48:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll add you to the denial list (none / 0)

I'm not saying it was legit reasoning. I'm saying if you feel that Clinton dissed you, you aren't going to say your vote was based on race.

by Falsehood on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:31:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What I think is that AAs are voting based on race (none / 0)

And all the excuses about perceived insults from Clinton are just window dressing to rationalize the decision.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:43:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What I think is that AAs are voting based on r (none / 0)

I don't get it. You think white Republicans will vote for McCain to get revenge for Hillary Clinton?

Or that they just won't vote for whoever black voters support?

by TL on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:47:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They will be the ones using black separatism (none / 0)

against Obama (not McCain, of course, but others) and 90% + votes for Obama play right into that theme. If Obama is regarded as a "black" candidate rather than a candidate for all people it will be because of:

1) his wife

his church and pastor
90% + votes from African Americans against a white candidate that had been well regarded by most black voters

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:53:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: They will be the ones using black separatism (none / 0)

There is a risk of that. No doubt.

But I don't think he thinks in those terms, and I think that will come through. He is someone who is willing to take on some of the worst canards that "race" leaders like Al Sharpton have been peddling - no small feat for someone in his position. That's what drew people to him from the time of his speech in 2004 to the present. It's really hard, because the divisions are so very deep. But I think this is the kind of Af-Am leader that a lot of Dems have been hoping for for a long time.

by TL on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:00:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You could be right (none / 0)

We'll see. Given what has occurred I think his accomplishing what you describe might be a tall order (for anyone).

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:07:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'll add you to the denial list (none / 0)

"will not be such apologists for blatantly race driven behavior"

Yes, if race hadn't been a factor, Obama would have indeed gotten percentages of 70% across all demographics, white and black alike.

I'm supporting this theory of mine by the fact that his strongest support is among the younger generations and the best-educated, traditionally those groups who indeed have the least problem with other races.

The oldest voters and the poorly-educated are the demographics most likely to be racially driven against Obama, and they have been bringing Obama's numbers down to a mere 50%, when his race-neutral percentage would have been around 70% as I said.

by Aris Katsaris on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:19:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls (2.00 / 1)

Nonsense....
The first lesson I learned in politics over forty years ago (yes I am THAT OLD and I Do read some of this stuff in the blogs!)was "Blood trumps ALL" - whether it be party id, ideology,friendship or gender.
The only way that Obama could have made this kind of showing - as Jesse Jackson did and Al Sharpton did to a certain extent - in his run was by using his race as a standard in this campaign. Without the A/A vote he would have won precious few primaries and would have been gone along with John Edwards, Joe Biden, etc. by now. Just a statement of fact.
Before you shoot too quickly, I do not believe that this is necessarily illegitimate in a campaign. The only thing I will fault Obama and his campaign for is their, in my opinion, unjustified attacks on the Clintons personally.
The MLK/LBJ thing was particularly wrong-headed becuase nothing said impugned MLK in any way. It simply pointed out, I think, that it takes more than just lofty rhetoric to accomplish something in the real world of political action.
And, by the way, I'm an Edwards person.
F.Y.I: I have no dog in this hunt... yet.

by M1513 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:03:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

reality check (none / 0)

Obama got lots of non-African-American votes.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.

by Carl Nyberg on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:13:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: reality check (none / 0)

Yes, he did; but far fewer than Hillary - and that is the point.
In the General Election the A/A vote will be about one-third to one-quarter what it is in the Democratic Primaries he has won.
And here lies the problem: he cannot expand his A/A base vote; he already has ALL OF IT. Now, in recent Democratic Primaries, he is losing INDIE and REP votes which are overwhelmingly white.
There are so many potential avenues of attack against OB that it will be very difficult for him to expand his white vote, especially when he is portrayed as the "affirmative action" presidential candidate.
Don't let your idealism or liberalism cloud your judgment. Barack will be just too easy a target in the General. If the Clinton's very mild comparatives could do this much damage....
It could get very ugly.

by M1513 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:00:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: reality check (none / 0)

"especially when he is portrayed as the "affirmative action" presidential candidate."

I hope the Republicans are stupid enough to go that way. Nice way to infuriate the Latino population and cause them to lose all of Texas as a result.

by Aris Katsaris on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:21:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls (2.00 / 1)

I thought Hillary should have tried harder to reach out for the AA vote in NC....Instead all we heard was how important the white working class vote was...

I can see Lake Erie from where I live, so can I please run the Navy?

by hootie4170 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:08:37 PM EST

OK, that is a fair comment (none / 0)

But maybe she just got sick of banging her head against the wall and decided to concentrate on the voters who actually might vote for her. One of her strongest supporters in PA was Mayor Nutter, one of her strongest in OH was Stephanie Tubbs-Jones. Those officials' passionate advocacy for her did nothing with African Americans. What is obvious is that there is nothing she can do to improve her situation with black voters.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:14:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: OK, that is a fair comment (none / 0)

Talk about them...all the speeches I saw she never mentioned them.

I can see Lake Erie from where I live, so can I please run the Navy?

by hootie4170 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:44:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why should she mention them? (none / 0)

When can African Americans just be regarded as Americans with the same problems and hopes as anyone else? Why do they have to be singled out for special attention? Their problems aren't different. They're just more widespread.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:05:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Why should she mention them? (none / 0)

Well why do we always hear about the white working class?? I mean I saw her go into bar's with all white men, I did not see her mix with the AA communtiy...I'm not trying to be an ass, just giving an opinion on how I think she could have reached out to them.

I can see Lake Erie from where I live, so can I please run the Navy?

by hootie4170 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:12:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Two months ago she would have done that (none / 0)

After four months of this primary she probably has figured out that she would be wasting her time and there are only so many hours in the day.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:15:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Two months ago she would have done that (2.00 / 1)

I understand your point, but even if she could have gotten 3% to change their minds thats a six point swing...I hear what your saying, but I think if Bill went into some of those black neighborhoods he might have made a difference...AA people love Bill..just a thought...

I can see Lake Erie from where I live, so can I please run the Navy?

by hootie4170 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:20:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls (2.00 / 1)

Anyone who actually believes that race isn't playing out here with the same results we have been seeing in almost every contest, has to be a fool. To convince yourself otherwise is even more foolish. This of course will play out again in November if Obama should be the nominee. Those exit poll numbers which indicate that Obama will lose many Clinton supporters certainly is food for thought for the Democratic elite.

Steven Shaman Publisher Skywatch-Media News

by steve468 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:09:50 PM EST

I have nothing but contempt (none / 0)

for people who call themselves Democrats but threaten not to vote for the Democratic candidate. Period. End of story.

accepting McLettuce is like being 9 years old and forced to eat your own cooking

by Sychotic1 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:15:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wow. That really hurts my feelings. (1.00 / 1)

And the feelings of all self-identified Democrats who may choose to exercise their constitutional rights of free voting by not selecting the Democratic nominee.

What a self-important schmuck you are!

Go ahead, troll rate me now because I dared to challenge your imperious stature.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:37:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Lolz (none / 0)

Then why bother calling yourself a Democrat. I am actually a registered independent, but have voted reliably Democratic for years because I believe that the D's have a better platform.

accepting McLettuce is like being 9 years old and forced to eat your own cooking

by Sychotic1 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:45:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Except for Reagan (1.00 / 1)

I've voted for every Democratic candidate since 1976. I've worked for Democratic candidates and was a state delegate. So, don't pull rank with me. But I, and any other American, has the right to vote for whomever I want and identify with any party I choose with or without your approval.

Now go ahead and troll rate me again just to feel your own Kossak power!

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:58:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Who is acting superior here? (none / 0)

Are you saying that I am not allowed to show contempt for those of you who pretend to espouse Democratic values but don't actually follow up with the action?

To me you are pixels on a screen. You can talk up your cred all ya want...but all I see is someone who is essentially saying "WAAAAAAA!"

accepting McLettuce is like being 9 years old and forced to eat your own cooking

by Sychotic1 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:32:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here, add another troll rating, loser (none / 0)

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:51:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here, add another troll rating, loser (none / 0)

You're a jackass.

by zep93 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:44:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Either foolish or outright dishonest (none / 0)

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:34:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls (none / 0)

Steve, I don't see it.

An Af-Am candidate for President just won 36 percent of the white vote in North Carolina against a strong white candidate.

Please. Tell me you thought this was remotely possible four years ago.

But obviously that's just a moral victory. Consider this. Barack won a majority of the white vote in a bunch of states. Wisconsin. Virginia. Maryland. Wisconsin. Washington state. He's probably going to do the same in Oregon. And he did very well or won a majority in a bunch of other states (think of Maine and Connecticut).

The point is - race plays out differently in different parts of the country. And, yes, in appalachia and the south it's an uphill climb for him. (And if you think white racism isn't playing a role, who's in denial now?) But it's not the same across the country. And if you look at the aggregates, across the whole country, he's plainly got as good a chance as she does come the fall.

by TL on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:53:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what about "White" women voting (none / 0)

for HRC?

Here's a theory: African-Americans perceived that HRC sent surrogates, like Geraldine Ferraro, to polarize voters along racial lines.

Obama was strong with Black voters. HRC's tactics made him stronger.

Rrrinnggg... Time to change the government.

by Carl Nyberg on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:10:36 PM EST

You are quite the verbal dancer (none / 0)

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:31:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They mean 'did race make you decide' (none / 0)

I think most people answer honestly.. in their opinion..

Just as most black people thought OJ Simpson was innocent, most white people thought he was guilty.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep isode.aspx?sched=1242
Confused by the 'Bailout' Lies?
Listen to NPR's The Giant Pool of Money

by architek on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:19:02 PM EST

So blacks have different cognitive processes? (none / 0)

Because the voting preference of whites who gave the "NO" answer was stunningly different from the blacks who did.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:33:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So blacks have different cognitive processes? (none / 0)

Let's assume that 20% of white people and 20% of blacks voted according to their race, when they would have voted for the other candidate otherwise.

That means Obama would win by 60-70% of the vote, spread equally across all demographics.

Supported by the fact that the young, the most educated ones, and the most liberals tend to prefer Obama -- namely the people most likely to be race-blind.

While Hillary's supported by the old, the most conservative people, and the poorly-educated, people most likely to hold race in high significance.

by Aris Katsaris on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:29:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls (none / 0)

I don't think they are voting race. They're voting comfort zone. It's what most individuals do. We hire people and rent to people who look just like us - even when they aren't the best applicant - because it's fun to be around people like ourselves. That's why we've only white guys up until now, because white people have been voting their comfort zone.

I'm sure there are going to be those who disagree me, but racism lingers in this nation because of the outrageous economic disparity. Most individuals couldn't make it better if they tried.

I"m sympathetic to African Americans voting for Obama in big numbers. But I'm angry with Obama for the race baiting. What he did was beneath the Democratic party. Whether he is the nominee or not, it will come back to haunt him as these things always do.

by Little Otter on Tue May 06, 2008 at 09:54:47 PM EST

Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls (2.00 / 1)

AHEM!
It is the same thing.
Race = comfort zone.
It is why millions of Caucasians will vote against Obama.

by M1513 on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:02:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hilarious, isn't it? (none / 0)

Sort of like some guy saying "I really don't care that much about looks. But I really like a girl with a nice rack, great eyes and hair, nice butt, long shapely legs, luscious lips, and a killer smile."

You realize how people will go to tremendous lengths to deny the obvious.

by lombard on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:22:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The right wings new hero (none / 0)

All the right wing scumbags that stand for everything that Democrats oppose are now falling all over themselves to support Hillary. They are praising her campaign tactics and messaging because they see it as a clone of the Atwater/Rove politics they love so much. When the race baiters and Neo Cons are singing your praises it should give you pause. I guess they see something that AA voters are also seeing.

by hankg on Tue May 06, 2008 at 10:46:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Cognitive Dissonance in Exit Polls (none / 0)

When 911 happened, Oprah exclaimed that she just realized that the rest of the world does not like America.

Hello! - America needs to wake up and realize that black America does not like white America.

by Swing Vote on Tue May 06, 2008 at 11:16:31 PM EST

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