Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame?

Obama is the nominee.  We realistic Clinton supporters knew that the final nail in the coffin was the night of the Indiana and North Carolina primaries.  A number of Clinton supporters have written diaries saying this result doesn't reflect the will of the people.  I share their pain and feel the Obama nomination is wrongheaded but I must respectfully disagree with their view that it does not reflect the will of the people.

Now, I ask, in our dissapointment, who should we blame?

1) Well, first I believe that we cannot blame the superdelegates who have been moving to Obama at an accelerating rate. They have had to make a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea and I don't envy their position.  No matter which choice they make they will anger substantial numbers of Democrats.  We could all argue whose supporters are the more damaging to alienate and we could provide plausible arguments.  In the end, going with the person who amassed the most pledged delegates is at least the safe choice.  Both these candidates have been damaged and both have shown strengths.  Only the most fanatical supporters of each will argue that only one or the other offers potential risks or rewards.

2) I do blame the Democratic primary structure.  We have been given three opportunities (Washington, Texas, and Nebraska) to see that caucus results have differed markedly from primary results.  Typically, participation rates in caucuses ran one-sixth to one-third of the participation of primaries yet these caucuses were awarded full state delegate totals.  The caucus system may appeal to activists but they may produce a decision that is less representative of the overall feeling in a state than a primary.  General elections are won in the center where activists often do not reside.

There is no reason to keep primaries open.  Force participants to register at least 30 days before the primary.  Throughout this season we had continual debates about the motives of Republican interlopers. Why worry about such things?  If Independents want to vote in the Democratic primary, they should make the affirmative decision to commit to that party for at least the same 30 days. We have independents in Congress and they have to make a decision about which party they will join to caucus.  

3) Blame the Clinton campaign.  They made some key mistakes in operational strategy and message.  Failing to compete in too many smaller places effectively ceded those to Obama.  Attacking Obama earlier in the campaign on petty issues (like the words about Reagan) and not hammering more serious ones, had the effect of hurting her and helping him.  She also made the mistake of making her nomination too much about gender.  She didn't need to do that and it cheapened her candidacy.  Once this election became about identity politics, people felt free to look at one historical identity achievement or the other and take a pass on hers. The other operational errors have been well discussed so I see no point in rehashing them.

By contrast, give credit to the Obama campaign where credit is due.  Their operational strategies were superior for the rules of this game.  Personally, I don't think much of his message, but at least he didn't make too many mistakes in message.

4) Finally, blame the Democratic voters if you feel the result is wrong.  Ultimately, they are the ones responsible.  Sure, Hillary may have won Democrats overall (this might have been enough without the problems mentioned in #2), but not a high enough percentage of them.  My own view is that at least half the party has crossed the great river into La La Land, but voters are entitled to do that.  Obama's nomination does reflect the will of the voters.  I may wish that weren't true, but, like the 2004 general election, I have to accept what I consider to be a wrongheaded verdict.



Display:


I never get rec'd but... (2.00 / 32)

I'm at least going to try this time!


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:37:19 PM EST

I'd rec you if I could (none / 0)

but... I think both caucus and primary does it about right.

And you Don't Seem To Recall, the numbers of Republicans who switched over 30 days beforehand. There were a lot

I think a week would be just as much of a barrier as thirty days, and with less of the "did I remember in time" -- you know, before the media even reminded people when their primary was!!


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:42:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There is no one to blame... (none / 0)

... in the sense that the Democratic Party now has a dynamic, highly intelligent, organizationally brilliant nominee -- one who is an incredible fundraiser, an agile campaigner able to alter the old Red State/Blue State map in our favor, and a truly fresh progressive force in our nation's politics.

The "blame" for this horrendous outcome (that's SNARK, people) is on the people of American who delivered the nomination to Barack Obama. We have a terrific candidate now, who has won:

* By far the most states and territories

  • A majority of pledged delegates
  • A majority of superdelegages
  • A majority of the popular vote by any rational measure

Be happy, people. We have a great candidate. His name is Barack Obama.


by Hudson on Thu May 22, 2008 at 09:58:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I never get rec'd but... (2.00 / 4)

I'll give you a rec.

I'm still a little bit torn between the primary and caucus systems, myself--one of the reasons I like caucuses is because they put less emphasis on party support or name recognition and more emphasis on grassroots organization, which is a somewhat more important measure of electability in the general election.  But I can also see the arguments against them because they reduce turnout and give voice only to those willing and able to spend several hours of their day caucusing.

The only reason Clinton lost is because she underestimated Barack Obama and his campaign staff, and relied too much on her own campaign staff who proved to be incompetent at their jobs.  If Hillary Clinton had run a tighter ship in December, January, and February, Obama would already be out and she'd already be the nominee.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:55:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Caucuses weren't MEANT to be 'democratic' (2.00 / 9)

This isn't the GE.  The states that have caucuses deliberately decided to give more of a say to those Democratic voters who were willing to show up, go through a more elaborate process, and devote a few hours.  Those are the same people who will be willing to pound pavement and donate in the GE, and in a primary giving them more say is a perfectly legitimate strategy.  The party will need these motivated party members to GOTV and fundraise in order to win the GE.

Unfortunately for Sen. Clinton, Sen. Obama happens to be very good at this particular kind of motivation.  That's a plus the caucuses were intended to encourage.

I don't want to get into the sexism thing, the racism thing, or the math thing; there's been way too much crap slung in all those directions.  I just have to say that the single moment when I lost my faith in Hillary -- when I clearly came to believe Obama was the superior candidate -- was when she showed up, in public, less than two weeks before the Texas primary, and admitted to the TV cameras that she thought their multi-tiered "primacaucus" system was "bizarre" and that they were still "figuring out how it works."  WTF?

THIS IS THE GAME YOU ARE PLAYING, SENATOR, I screamed at the TV.  She committed millions of dollars, the efforts of thousands of volunteers, and DIDN'T KNOW THE RULES?  This, to me, was a much worse failing than her later attempt to turn the whole affair into Calvinball.  Yeah, it's lame and selfish but we've had good leaders who did lame and selfish things.  As many point out it's a positive that she fights when others might give up.

But it's not a positive, by any measure, and a very damning negative, that she entered the game without even knowing how it's played or, apparently, why.


by localroger on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:22:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Caucuses weren't MEANT to be 'democratic' (2.00 / 2)

Right on. And it's not just the rules of the state primaries and caucuses and various other details that go into selecting delegates. It's the rules of Washington DC and the rules of the corporate media.

Everybody's playing on the same field. The rules may be silly and stupid and arbitrary, but everyone knew them in advance. She's obviously an extraordinarily smart and capable person, she should have been better prepared.

The rules for caucuses and proportional representation and all that jazz were known in advance. Barack Obama and his organization knew those rules and played them to good effect. She didn't.

Hillary Clinton has been in Washington long enough to know the way the beltway media works. The media is full of narcissistic little children with giant egos. John McCain long ago figured out how to play those egos to his advantage. Barack Obama has done his own homework learning how to charm the chattering class. Hillary Clinton, for whatever reason, hasn't done that.


Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!
by fwiffo3 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:43:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Caucuses weren't MEANT to be 'democratic' (none / 0)

Actually I thought it was about money.

Fund raising in Iowa for instance?


by 12 dogs and a blog on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:02:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Caucuses weren't MEANT to be 'democratic' (none / 0)

In our primary we just vote. No one pays to go vote and it's not a fundraiser in any way.

It's like the general election in process and we vote in private so noone can pressure us to vote one way or the other. After the primary there is a run off if necessary otherwise the winners of both primaries will go to the general election.

Oh and is this part of the "grieving process".

Cause I save my grieving for people who've died or things that have ended.

LOL Lombard. Good try.

Not a dead ender here just sheesh. LOL This stuff has been going on since what January. I've kind of stopped listening to it.

LOL


by 12 dogs and a blog on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:08:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Caucuses weren't MEANT to be 'democratic' (none / 0)

Well see, if it were about fundraising, Clinton would have won Iowa instead of posting third.  She outraised Obama and seriously outraised Edwards in the third and fourth quarters of 2008.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/ 2008/01/clinton-beats-o.html


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu May 22, 2008 at 08:02:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Caucuses weren't MEANT to be 'democratic' (none / 0)

Major source of fundraising the Iowa state Democratic Party.

I was asking questions about the primaries. Very nice person told me that the Iowa caucus was a big fund raiser for the Democratic party in Iowa. Might even be one of the main sources of revenue. If they reworked the primary selection process it would very much affect the Iowa Democratic Party's fundraising.

Thank you for being nice in your response.

Thing is I wasn't thinking about the candidates but the structure of the way the Democratic party votes for their nominees. The revenue for the state party came up.

Please note civil discourse.

Between myself and a Sen. Obama supporter. Who was nice to me and I was nice back.


by 12 dogs and a blog on Thu May 22, 2008 at 04:17:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Highly rec'd (2.00 / 2)

Nicely said.  It's diaries like this that make me certain the party will unify behind our nominee.  

You definately speak for a silent majority.  A stark contrast to the tiny but vocal fringe.

Thank you.  



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:07:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I never get rec'd but... (2.00 / 2)

Rec'd. I think your diary was very well stated and thought out and I have similar feelings about much of this years election.

Thank you.


by mztower on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:08:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I never get rec'd but... (2.00 / 2)

I recced you -- we've not often agreed so far, but this diary was an excellent one.


by Aris Katsaris on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:20:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks, I especially appreciate that from you (2.00 / 5)

Considering how obnoxious I've been in our exchanges!


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:16:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

In Wa. + Ne. + Fl. Fake Primaries = Fake Results (none / 0)

I know many registered Democrats here in Washington who didn't vote in our fake Primary because they knew it wouldn't count.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:15:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I recced you up too ;) (2.00 / 1)


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:33:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

jYippee for maturity! (none / 0)

;-)


*&=4eva
by BlogSurrogate57 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:49:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If I might be so bold... (1.93 / 16)

5) Blame her vote on Iraq. Early on, she held too closely to it, which was directly at odds with the Democratic base. Then she started running against the war directly, which opened up the criticism that she was being hypocritical. And she has yet to apologize for her vote (and, frankly, I don't think she ever will, wants to, or thinks she needs to).

Iraq played a huge role in many of the early voting states and that gave Obama an ace in his sleeve, having publicly stood against the war from the start.


by not Brit on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:42:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If I might be so bold... (2.00 / 5)

Agreed.  The war is (I believe) the number one issue for the activist Democratic base.  Not only did she vote for it, but she refused to really own up to her responsibility for it or at least apologize.  Add to this her vote for the Iran bill, and the base was justifiably suspicious of what a Clinton foreign policy would look like.

(I think the second major issue that really hurt her was her embrace of the DLC and its corporatist platform.)

I think despite her early advantages in the polls and with the big Dem donors, a huge chunk of the democratic base was waiting to coalesce around a viable alternative because of the reasons cited above, and they found one in Obama.


by cato on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:01:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If I might be so bold... (2.00 / 2)

John Kerry and John Edwards were also strong supporters of the war, are they hypocrites as well?
And frankly, I don't think she needs to apologize for it- she has explained over and over again why she made the decision she did at that time, and apologizing for it won't change anything.
If she had apologized at the beginning of the campaign, people would have said she was pandering.
So she was damned either way.
"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:05:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If I might be so bold... (2.00 / 5)

Nonsense. If she had done what Edwards did, admit that this was a terrible vote, that he was wrong, and that he wishes he could take it back, then I might have turned her way.


by PhilFR on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:12:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If I might be so bold... (2.00 / 3)

I didn't call her a hypocrite (and won't), I just said she opened herself up to that criticism.

But, since you asked, I think it was a huge mistake for Edwards and Kerry to vote for the war and I am grateful (beyond words) that we have a nominee this year who is not burdened by that vote.

Would apologizing have made any difference? No. Would standing up against this President when it would have mattered made a difference? Your damn right it would have. You said it yourself: she's damned either way.


by not Brit on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:17:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If I might be so bold... (2.00 / 4)

I absolutely agree that the Iraq war authorization vote is the key reason Hillary lost. You have 3 democrats right here in this diary who have told you that this is the reason they voted against Hillary. I personally know many other Obama supporters who voted for Obama for the same reason.

I think John Kerry also lost because of his vote. He got himself so tongue-tied trying to explain an unjustifiable vote that he came across correctly as someone whose word could not be trusted. I of course voted for him in the general election but I was a Dean supporter for the same reason I am an Obama supporter. I was just as disappointed in Dean's loss as you are with Clinton's. And I also blamed the media. Obama and Dean both had the courage to oppose the Iraq war from the start. Actually my favorite candidate of all was really Dennis Kucinich because he was the most principled candidate of all, but I knew he had no chance at all.


by berkeleymike on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:32:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: If I might be so bold... (none / 0)

Iraq was certainly the primary reason she sank to the bottom of the list of Dem contenders.


by PhilFR on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:10:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

True (2.00 / 2)

Although I believe her actions were consistent with the traditional legislative unity behind the president in dealings with hostile powers.  Ultimately, I blame Bush because of his brazen determination to have war.


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:19:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed (2.00 / 6)

Bush holds the ultimate blame for the entire mess. I just wish our legislators had had the moral fortitude to tell him, "Not a frigg'n chance." It was bad enough that we started a war without a Congressional declaration (which is unconstitutional), but listening to our elected officials give their unity speeches was physically painful.

In the end, I think it hurt her more than anything else in those early states. Obama, Edwards, and even Kucinich were able to relentlessly hammer her on Iraq for months. It took its toll and she paid the price (how's that for a mixed metaphor?).


by not Brit on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:29:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A very good one! (none / 0)

At the time, I didn't like the fact that the Democrats voted for the authorization even though Congress typically supports the president in these matters.  This was more of an issue for me in 2004 because the important focus of this election is how do we handle the Iraq situation now.


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:15:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A very good one! (2.00 / 4)

Fair point, but I do think it's important to rehash how we got here a bit, because this isn't the last one of these [tense military standoff] that we're going to have to do and it goes directly to what kind of President you want in the White House.

The weight of the evidence (in my opinion) indicates that Hillary's vote was made primarily on political considerations. She didn't want to be labeled as soft on terrorism (along with most other Democrats, whom I don't hold in any higher esteem). I think she'd be a pretty good president; but I'm just worried about a situation where her numbers are down and she's running for re-election and the GOP is labeling her as soft--is there anyone where who doesn't believe that she would make the same decision again?

Given the choice I'd rather take the nominee who has the capacity to stand firmly on principle even when that's unpopular--and who is articulate and convincing enough that he can take those kinds of GOP attacks head on.

If Hillary had take a principled stand like that--and thus proven that she wasn't going to be held hostage by bumper-sticker politics--then I would have supported her. So, yeah, I think that's the one big area where she could have done something different to win my support--and I imagine that there are quite a few in the same boat.

BTW: Eventhough most Democratic Senators voted for the AUMF, 71% of the Senators who actually read the intelligence report voted against the AUMF. Now, ask yourself, "was Hillary part of the 29% that voted for the AUMF despite reading the report? or did she not read it?--which is scarier?"

http://pages.prodigy.net/thomasn528/blog /2008_02_24_newsarcv.html


by Brannon on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:07:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree her actions were political (2.00 / 1)

I agree that she didn't want to appear soft (and I think she felt the particular need to overcompensate because she was a woman. I don't doubt that those same considerations led her to joining the Armed Services Committee).  I also think she was influenced by the fact that Republicans, despite their resistance, did support her husband on the Bosnia mission and she felt that Congress had to show, as she called it, "coercive diplomacy."  Also remember, that her husband didn't care much for Saddam, either.  

The difference between the Clintons and Bush, though, is that the Clintons are way too cautious to ever enter a major war commitment of choice.  Unlike Bush, they are the type of people that follow public opinion more than seek to lead it.  I find that reassuring in a leader.


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:20:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree her actions were political (2.00 / 1)

What happens when public opinion is wrong? Most of the country believed in the Iraq war early on because there was a concerted effort to link the war to 9/11.

We need to have leaders that will try to correct a flawed public opinion--even when that's a tough sell that you can't easily put on a bumper sticker.


by Brannon on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:36:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree the public was wrong (none / 0)

But I do think they were being rallied by the top as well and I don't think she would ever do that for such a risky venture.  There were plenty of GOP leaning talking heads (and politicians, too) that were saying the case hadn't been made.  I think they changed their tune when the polls showed the idea was selling well.


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:12:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree her actions were political (2.00 / 3)

BTW: This is a good diary and I think it serves both as a post-mortem on the Hillary campaign as well as trying to bridge the divide between Obama supporters and Hillary supporters.


by Brannon on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:39:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The authorization vote was just part of it (2.00 / 1)

I agree that the important issue is how we handle Iraq now. But I believe it was just part of either bad judgment or bad belief systems about foreign policy. John Edwards at least made a clean break from the past and supported vigorous action to try to end the war now, more vigorous than Obama as well as than Clinton. But Clinton also has shown bad judgment on Iran at a very dangerous time when Bush may well lie us into another military conflict. She has used inflammatory rhetoric ("obliterate Iran") and voted for the Kyl-Lieberman ammendment which I think was primarily offered to start building a case for attacks against Iran.

So when Hillary ran the 3AM phone call ad the answer was totally clear to me. Obama was the one I wanted answering the phone at 3AM. My feeling is that he is the one I can trust to make a good judgment, not contaminated by political judgments and with a natural instinct to look for peaceful solutions, not beliggerent solutions.

P.S. I appreciate your diary as an opening to dialog. I rec'ed it because of that. I hope you take these criticisms of Hillary as sincere opinions and not as an unfair attack.


by berkeleymike on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:11:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I do and appreciate your thoughts (2.00 / 1)


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:21:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is the primary reason I oppose her. (2.00 / 4)

I didn't like it in Kerry or Edwards either (in fact, I believe that it was this fault -- resulting in their inability to hard-line Bush on the illegal and immoral invasion and occupation of Iraq -- that cost them the 2004 election), but at least Edwards made his mea culpas.

Hillary has not.  Her persistent, stubborn refusal to renounce her AUMF vote in no uncertain terms combined with her hawkish vote for Kyl-Lieberman to rule out absolutely any chance of my supporting her, especially given an alternative in Obama who is not burdened by those faults.


Ignorance is weakness. Get strong.
by tbetz on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:28:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I agree a 150 percent (none / 0)


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:35:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Those two things also reflect a pattern (none / 0)

(AUMF, & Kyl-Lieberman)

There is also the flag burning amendment, and the cluster bombs.


by Bucky on Thu May 22, 2008 at 05:08:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm a troll? (none / 0)

Sweet!

Actually, I was a bit afraid of that when I chose the word "hypocritical." Regardless, that was the charge she had to deal with during those first brutal debates.

I don't think she'll ever apologize for her votes, either for the Iraq war or for Kyl-Leiberman. It was the risk she took running as the strong, establishment candidate against the "populist" candidate Edwards and the "change" candidate Obama. After Super Tuesday, she did a brilliant job of remaking her campaign to fill the void left by John Edwards. If Hillary had started her campaign as the populist, it may have turned out different.

And if the Wright story broke before Super Tuesday... and if Florida or Michigan hadn't moved their primaries... and if the primaries were decided by popular vote instead of delegate count... and if the media didn't absolutely fall in love with Barack Obama...

If, if, if...


by not Brit on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:59:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm a troll? (none / 0)

If?

Is the word in the middle of Life.

Life?

Is a whole lotta if's strung together in one calculated wager called living.

LOL.


by 12 dogs and a blog on Thu May 22, 2008 at 07:27:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I never get rec'd but... (2.00 / 1)

Good diary.  


http://www.imvotingrepublican.com/ McCain Sucks!
by yitbos96bb on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:48:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I'd rec you on high (2.00 / 2)

if I could for a considered, honest assessment. I don't necessarily agree with you 100%, but you've obviously thought about this for a while and I appreciate that you took the time to share.

Thanks.


by bookish on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:54:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks! (2.00 / 1)


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:25:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I never get rec'd but... (2.00 / 4)

Look at it from another direction: if Hillary Clinton had voted against the Iraq war resolution, would she be the nominee today?

My guess is yes.


John McCain: Healthcare for Kids? In America? No way
by bosdcla14 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:55:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Someone could have challenged her from the right (none / 0)

She might well be the nominee now if she'd bothered to read  the NIE and voted against this stupid war, but she may very well have been challenged by somebody else in the Democratic party from the right, arguing for the rightness of the Iraq war, as she has.

The war has turned out so badly thought that I don't know if anyone else who was a war supporter could have even gotten as far as Hilary did. Actually, come to think of it, no Democrat who was a war supporter HAS come as far as Hilary. If it was anyone besides Hilary, this primary season would be coming down to two anti-war candidates.


There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men - true nobility is being superior to your former self. -- Hindu Proverb
by RedwoodGirl on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:36:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I never get rec'd but... (2.00 / 1)

I disagree with the closed primary thing though.

I strongly believe that we NEED to keep our finger on the pulse of Independents.

There is a chance that if we had a closed primary, we would end up with a nominee that had the strength of the entire Democratic Base behind him or her, but was totally unacceptable to Independents.

Meanwhile, the Republicans would open their primaries to Independents, and could therefore easier court them during the Primary season.

What do they say, once you vote for a party three times you are hooked for life?


If you are not voting Obama, please let me know so I can replace your sorry ass with another new voter.
by Darknesse on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:59:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Well, the GOP does close more of theirs (2.00 / 1)

And my own feeling is that independents are more fickle and less involved.  Besides, I wasn't saying those people couldn't participate, just that they would have to commit more than 30 days before.  This provision would have restrained many Republicans voting in the Democratic primary until at least PA because the GOP primary wasn't effectively decided until Super Tuesday.


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:22:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, the GOP does close more of theirs (none / 0)

I'm of the thinking that, while rules could be clarified and the apportioning of delegates could be simplified, generally the system as is has the potential to be good.

A mix of closed and open primaries and caucuses allows for a clearer reading, in the long run, of what kind of support the eventual nominee will have in the GE. Will the party faithful come out? Are the registered but not-so-active Dems rallying behind anybody? Which way are independents breaking?

It's a good mix, and I don't think the problem is with, for instance, caucuses in general. It's the arcane structuring of delegate allocation that has really riled people, I think--how Clinton can win Nevada or Texas, but Obama can get more delegates.

That's the area that's ripe for reform, if you ask me (along with state scheduling).


John McCain is a coward. He has no honor.
by vadasz on Thu May 22, 2008 at 03:30:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Well, the GOP does close more of theirs (none / 0)

I like the idea of proportional allocation, though in this situation it is a bit maddening. If I was structuring the system I'd pick allocation solely on a district level, and the number of delegates per state based on population, and allocated per district based on turnout in each district that election, not in advance. Of course that would require people wait at bit longer to get results, while the numbers get processed through a -gasp- computer algorithm. Probably add 15 seconds to each update of the count, and you could do the delegate count real time.

I'd really love a system where I get to rank all the candidates on the ballot, which would hopefully result in a candidate that is the most acceptable to the electorate at large. This would likely strain the financing system probably more than the voting system.

I actually agree with the concept of early states, they are smaller and thus cheaper to campaign in, thus more candidates can get their message out. If we lead with FL and MI there just aren't enough early dollars out there to allow for more than a couple of initial viable candidates, at least that's how I see it.

As for caucuses, if a state is going to hold a primary less than 2 months later, I'd be inclined to do away with them. I've never participated in one, so maybe that would change my mind. Anecdotally, my parents couldn't go to the one where they live in KS because of the weather, it was in the next county and there was bad snow, and they always vote but it wasn't safe to drive, so that may have biased me some as well.


by patooker on Thu May 22, 2008 at 09:34:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I never get rec'd but... (2.00 / 2)

Oh, and great diary. I would rec if my rights hadn't mysteriously disappeared.


If you are not voting Obama, please let me know so I can replace your sorry ass with another new voter.
by Darknesse on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:00:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Damn, lombard... right on. (2.00 / 2)

Tipped and rec'd.


Even John McCain lusts after teh engels.
by sricki on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:19:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I never get rec'd but... (2.00 / 1)

Just also rec'd.


by niksder on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:41:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I never get rec'd but... (2.00 / 2)

rec'd for objectivity from a wrongheaded la la lander :)


by grasshopper on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:42:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Tipped, Rec'd, AND a Question... (1.50 / 2)

THANK YOU for an even-handed evaluation of what went wrong in Clinton's campaign. Although she was never my first choice, I assumed she'd be the nominee and would've GLADLY supported her. She took her role as front runner for granted and fumbled it over the long haul.

NOW, a question I've posed to a couple of Clinton supporters, but never had answered. What should happen to states who try to cheat their Primaries forward next time around? I've never heard her say what she'd do to control that in the future - do you know her stand OR have opinions of your own??


by RNinNC on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:12:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think they should rotate this order (2.00 / 1)

Iowa and NH shouldn't be given first status in perpetuity.  Also, downsize Super Tuesday a bit. Right now, there is plenty of empty space in March and April.


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:07:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

first off- great diary (2.00 / 1)

I think the primary should be a strait pop vote with the order of the states randomly assigned and evenly spaced over a few months. say, 7 states every other week.

the order would randomly be decided the day after the previous election.

it would certainly make it more entertaining for us, as well as ensuring that different kinds of candidates got different advantages each election cycle.

anything other than the system we have now


BHO/HRC 08
by omar little on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:36:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't Disagree, (2.00 / 1)

but that still doesn't account for states that change their dates forward at the last minute. To be clear, I'm not certain what should be done either. I think it was clear that MI and FL were playing with fire before the votes there happened, and the punishment was set out in writing. BUT, it was the Repubs who screwed with the dates, really - it's a perplexing question.

Thanks again for the excellent, interactive and positive diary! Will look to you for more, so consider yerself on the spot!


by RNinNC on Thu May 22, 2008 at 02:01:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Very kind of you! Thanks. (none / 0)


by lombard on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Regarding Caucus Counts (none / 0)

------------------
2) I do blame the Democratic primary structure.  We have been given three opportunities (Washington, Texas, and Nebraska) to see that caucus results have differed markedly from primary results.  Typically, participation rates in caucuses ran one-sixth to one-third of the participation of primaries yet these caucuses were awarded full state delegate totals.  The caucus system may appeal to activists but they may produce a decision that is less representative of the overall feeling in a state than a primary.  General elections are won in the center where activists often do not reside.
------------------

I've written about this before, but here goes again. :)

Caucus counts are not popular vote. They are state electors. Those state electors typically represent anywhere from 3-20 people depending on your state.

That means that the 200,000+ lead Obama has in the caucus state electors is actually 600,000 - 4,000,000 people who participated.

Hope this helps.


by Yalin on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:32:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (2.00 / 11)

I blame:

-All the voters who voted for him (including myself).
-His campaign strategists for figuring out a way to overcome someone who had the democratic establishment, a former 2 term popular president, and an enormous fundraising apparatus behind her.
-Mark Penn for his ineptitude.
-Sen. Clinton for her failure to recognize the strategy wasn't working and/or sack Mark Penn.


United we stand, divided we fall.
by mefeck on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:39:09 PM EST

Not a single delegate has voted for nominee (none / 0)

It is a bit early for a post mortem.  We don't really know what worked and what didn't primarily because we don't know how it turned out.  We may find that Obama's offer to help the DNC get money is the move with the bigest payoff.  Read in the paper today that he has taken over the DNC and using it to shape his general election team.

The thing that may make the most difference with voters could even turn out to be the Obama team's efforts to keep the votes in Florida and Michigan from being counted or re-voted.  

Talking about seating them in the convention but not letting them influence the nomination process is trampling on the most basic democratic value. You can't say our belief in counting every vote can be over ruled by some committee decision or candidate agreement.  

What day someone holds a primary is not as important a value to democrats as "government by the people".  It doesn't matter who said what to get us here.  It looks to the country like a corruption of due process.  2000 taught them that Republicans didn't want to count the votes.

2008 teaches them that the Democratic Party leadership and Senator Obama don't want the votes counted.  And the rest of us appear to be letting them get away with it.  That helps us win  the White House how?

Maybe the most significant event of the  2008 election is either massive party reform after losing in November or the grand exodus of many of the people who have been feeling since the 2006 elections that the party no longer shares their values resulting in  the development of a new entity...The New Democratic Party or the Real Democratic Party founded on the old Democratic Party values.

But until we know how the delegates end up voting, who they end up voting for and whether that nominee wins in November, we are not very likely to know what made the difference among all of the things that ended up working and not working or who is to blame.


by itsadryheat on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:41:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (2.00 / 4)

I'm reccing lombard. Great diary.

I blame Mark Penn. This was Hills to lose.


Mooseburgers? Careful Sarah. Moose bite back!
by spacemanspiff on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:41:57 PM EST

Thanks! (2.00 / 2)


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:42:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As an Obama supporter, I'd be less than honest (2.00 / 5)

if I didn't blame the process.  I think open primaries are stupid and, though Obama did well in them and I think they're quaint, caucuses are a strange thing....as are primacaucuses.  Why not just have primaries where delegates run locally and are apportioned?

Most of all, I think Clinton dropped the ball on this and it's a shame.  She's smarter than the campaign she ran.  


by ksh on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:47:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (none / 0)


I rec'd, although the word "blame" implies something bad.
by neonplaque on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:44:24 PM EST

Blame is an appropriate word for the sentiments (none / 0)

of the defeated.  Prematurely forcing a positive outlook would be disengenous.


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:49:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

True, (2.00 / 2)

But if you look at the title cold, you don't have that context, it does seem like another slam diary.

But I rec'd for the content and the sentiment.


by ATL Dem on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:34:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I guess that could be taken that way (none / 0)

But I guess that's just my style.  Being a negative person, I always start with negativity and then introduce some positives around the edges.


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:42:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Will of the people (2.00 / 6)

The Democratic Party rules are not intended to reflect the will of the people.  They are a set of rules by which a result is obtained.  An Obama nomination would be within those rules.  A Hillary Clinton nomination would be within those rules.  A Dennis Kucinich nomination would be within those rules.


99% perspiration
by DaveOinSF on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:44:34 PM EST

Re: Will of the people (2.00 / 3)

The Democratic Party rules are not intended to reflect the will of the people.
And likewise, neither are the rules of the general election...cough*Al Gore*cough


by desertjedi on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:51:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (2.00 / 1)

Rec'd - though it's a shame to cast it all in a negative light.  I blame Clinton for losing, and give enormous credit to Obama for devising and sticking to a winning strategy.


by interestedbystander on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:50:08 PM EST

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (2.00 / 5)

I'll rec you.  I think that there are two overwhelming factors: 1) her vote on Iraq; and 2) strategists who crafted an absolutely disastrous primary strategy.  Remove one or the other, and I honestly believe that she would have won.


by rfahey22 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:57:02 PM EST

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (2.00 / 2)

Damn, that is a great explanation that is short and sweet.

I think the War issue destroyed her with the Dem base and the campaign strategy messed her up with the local grass roots efforts.

She didn't even setup a campaign office in MARYLAND!

Why, we were just 7 days past Super Tuesday.

In the end obama won by 20% when 2/3 of our neibboring states gave her doubledigit leads  (those two states, WV and PA happened 2 months later)

Hillary could have won, but her own disposition cost her a nomination that was praciticly handed to her (and Mark Penn dropped and stomped on).


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:10:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

How about the Clintons (2.00 / 10)

If people are going to blame the so-called system, then they have to look towards the Clintons.  After all, they controlled the party for 8 years, as the first family, and then the controlled the party machinery for another 4 years, when they installed Terry Mac as DNC chairman.

They've been at the helm for 12 of the last 15 years.

P.S. I appreciate your participation in the reality based community.  


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:58:13 PM EST

Thanks! The ones from opponents mean the most! (2.00 / 2)


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:28:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks! The ones from opponents mean the most! (2.00 / 1)

I thought your diary was very well thought out and and thought provoking.  Rec'd....for what it's worth.

I do find it surprising the HRC had such a lousy strategy for the post Feb. 5 run of States.  To me, that is the most surprising part of her campaign.

But it does fit what frustrates me most about the Clinton era...they tended to ignore a lot of states.  Their theory was to run hard in the swing states, and ignore completely red states.  

While this strategy may be sound in the short term, I believe it is wrong long term, as it leaves down ballot dems in traditionally red states to languish (I used to live in such a red state...it sucks.)

It's interesting to me that the only states HRC was ready for during the three months post-Feb 5 were Ohio, PA and Texas....two of the three of those were going to be swing states in the fall, so presumably she had organizations there to begin with.

She was flat-footed in Maryland, VA, Wisc., MN...and those losses really hurt.

If you had told me a year ago that Obama would politically outmaneuver HRC to win this thing, I'd have recommended your for a loony bin.

Strange year.  Let's hope Obama adapts well to a general election.


by stlatty72 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:21:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You do get the impression that they had no Plan B (none / 0)

In fact, after the nomination started getting away from them, they appeared to just be making it up as they went along.  Funny, she actually seemed better when her campaign was in more desperate shape.


by lombard on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:34:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

She did look good... (2.00 / 1)

It seems a lot of politicians look better when they are behind.  It's almost as if they say, "Screw it, I'm just going to be myself."  Very endearing.


by stlatty72 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 12:27:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (2.00 / 6)

Lombard--props for your ability to approach this situation with a realistic outlook. It has to be hard. I mostly agree with your take on why she lost. Overall I think that her message was lacking in inspiration early on and was too heavy on symbols of incumbency and entrenched power.

But mostly I think her loss can be chalked up to the fact that for whatever reasons this was a change election and she ran an incumbent's campaign. Blame must be ascribed to Mark Penn of course for not recognizing the dynamics of the campaign and adjusting accordingly. But it is arguable that in this political climate that she would have lost to Obama no matter what her message was (assuming he ran the same campaign). She was tied to the past, and while it is a past (the 1990's) that we remember fondly, it is the past none the less. There was a great hunger apparently in the Dem electorate for a new face and a new message.


by wasder on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:59:37 PM EST

I agree with you but that worries me (none / 0)

I view the Bush administration as a big "change" administration and the former Clinton administration as incrementalist and pragmatic.  The perception of too much change too quickly typically invites backlash.


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:32:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree with you but that worries me (none / 0)

Also, I don't think you can completely disregard the fact that her last name is Clinton. The possibility of a presedential line-up of Bush/CLinton/Bush/Clinton seemed to turn people off as well.


by wasder on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:32:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree with you but that worries me (2.00 / 1)

I know what you mean about Bush being a change administration in that post 9/11 they proposed and implemental (and disastrous) changes. And I know what you mean about the Clinton administration being incrementalist. But what I was saying is not about the administrations themselves but about the nature and mood of the electorate. There is a hunger for change it seems. But I do think that the Obama administration, should it come to pass, will be incrementalist as well. Obama is a very pragmatic individual and I think the skill and discipline of the campaign will be matched by the sensible nature of the administration (we hope right?).


by wasder on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:36:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I agree with you but that worries me (none / 0)

I meant to say that Bush proposed and implemented disastrous post 9/11 policies...


by wasder on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:38:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think you're right. (none / 0)

He doesn't strike me as a big risk taker, either.


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:12:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (none / 0)

LOL Lombard this is part of the grieving process LOL

Ah hell Lombard. Next we'll be having grieving councilors.


by 12 dogs and a blog on Wed May 21, 2008 at 11:12:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There were PLENTY of Republican interlopers (none / 0)

in the "closed" Kentucky Democratic primary.

Huge, huge number of registered Democrats who haven't voted Democratic in many, many years and are unlikely to do so again in the future.

And yes, that includes "for a Clinton." 61.6% of voters in 1996 were registered Democrats. Clinton got 45.8% of the vote (i.e. 25% of Democrats didn't vote for him)


by bobdoleisevil on Wed May 21, 2008 at 05:59:52 PM EST

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (2.00 / 1)

exceptionally fair-minded

would rec if I could


McCain just lied again
by wrb on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:00:41 PM EST

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (2.00 / 2)

This is an intellectually honest diary for a change. Recced for that reason with my newly-returned rec powers:D


by animated on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:05:24 PM EST

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (2.00 / 2)

Recommended. I think that this is a very fair appraisal of the situation.


by blue jersey mom on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:08:24 PM EST

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (2.00 / 2)

I understand the concerns about caucuses, I have some of them, too.  However, please check out a diary I wrote a few days ago.  Obama is doing very well in general election match-ups against McCain in the caucus states that he won.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/19/1921 2/9898#commenttop


by ProfessorReo on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:08:49 PM EST

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (none / 0)

You do realize that's it's a bit inconsistent to complain about caucuses and then advocate implementing closed-primaries that must be registered for 30 days in advance, correct?


by RP McMurphy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:10:00 PM EST

Perhaps a bit (none / 0)

Such a system might require party preference at general registration (I understand the potential concerns about confidentiality or partisan cronyism).  If you are already registered as a member of the party you would not have to reregister for the primary.  Only the independents and Republicans would have to do the switch no later than 30 days before.  


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:35:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perhaps a bit (none / 0)

Not all states require you to register.

You can simply walk in declare which party's primary you are going to vote in and they hand you that parties ballot. In the general election you vote open. Meaning you don't declare any party affiliation.

Just walk up and vote.

Lots of different ways to vote.


by 12 dogs and a blog on Thu May 22, 2008 at 07:31:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (2.00 / 1)

Rec'd.  Nice job lombard.


I'm as strong as a bull moose, and you can use me to the limit. - Teddy Roosevelt
by fogiv on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:10:10 PM EST

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (2.00 / 3)

Look, let's not be children here. The superdelegates are cowards who fear the wrath of the Democratic Party's most loyal supporters if they supported Hillary.  That is a simple fact.  If Obama were WAY behind McCain at this point they would reconsider, but they're not willing to offend AA's because Hillary would only be marginally a better candidate (which she would be).  The process: don't get me started. I love the way the media loves to talk about proportionality then ignore the fact that Hillary wins Penn by almost 10 points (a net delegate gain of 15) but only nets 10 because of DISproportionality.  And these caucuses are for the birds and I would say this if Hillary had won all of them. Why doesn't a loyal Democrat in a nursing home in Iowa get the right to vote but some 17 year old does?  Why do you have to declare whom you are voting for for all to see and hear?  Why are some citizens given TWO bites of the apple on caucus night?  The press: I've never seen such biased reportage and it's a tossup as to who the worst offender was.


by handsomegent on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:10:29 PM EST

Superdelegates are cowards? (2.00 / 3)

Frankly, I WANT the superdelegates to "fear the wrath of the Democratic Party's most loyal supporters."


by PhilFR on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:15:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (2.00 / 1)

The diarist lays it out pretty well but I like your list of declaimers.

The entire system this year has me fit to spit -- the convoluted way delegates are assigned may be swell for the party but it hardly seems Democratic.    And count me square in the column for abolition of the caucus system.  A primary can be just as strong a test of grassroots organization and anything that errs in the direction of limiting participation is just plain wrong. (and I too would say that if Hillary won them all)  
I realize the whole Iowa and New Hampsshire first thing, and caucus goers gathering aroudn imaginary apple barrels is quaint and all, but Norman Rockwell has been dead for half a century already.

And don't get me started on the press.  It was obvious from the beginning that the pudits had a particular comfort level with trashing the Clintons.  Obama they didn't know what the hell to do with so he was handled with asbestos gloves for months.

All that said, Mark Penn is a moron.


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:29:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, she's only marginally better by objective (none / 0)

evidence and that is not enough to upset the result of the system.


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:37:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, she's only marginally better by objective (none / 0)

Well we can debate about this objective metric but I won't despoil a rather fantastic diary with what would be just an opinionated set of metrics

Kudos on a great diary (rec'd)


by v2r1 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:19:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks! (none / 0)

I did include the word "marginally"


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 08:35:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (none / 0)

In Pennsylvania, Clinton won the vote by 9.2% but the delegates by 7.6%, so one more delegate for her would be more proportional.  In Kentucky, she got 68.6% of the two person vote but 72.5% of the delegates.  Overall, it averages out pretty well.


by CA Pol Junkie on Thu May 22, 2008 at 01:32:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

rec'd (none / 0)

I'd place the blame on ignoring the primaries and not pushing immediately for revotes for MI/FL.  Clinton was never going to get MI to count as is, but she could have had them both revote on 3/5 to make a mini-Super Tuesday.  Obama would have been stretched thinner and Clinton would have racked up larger margins in TX/OH and would have won at least FL on top of it.  


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:14:41 PM EST

That would have been a good idea. (none / 0)


by lombard on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:50:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That would have been a good idea. (2.00 / 1)

...that's why I was careful not to say it here until it was too late, lest it get to her ;)


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:27:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (2.00 / 1)

I blame the majority of voters that voted for him.  Those bastards!


John McCain wants to stay in Iraq.
by ihaveseenenough on Wed May 21, 2008 at 06:15:10 PM EST

Re: Obama is the nominee. Who is to blame? (none / 0)

Hmm, I'm not so sure about "blaming" anybody, especially Independants and Republican interference. Some Republicans voted for candidates because of a genuine wish to vote for them in the Fall.

On the other hand, there was mischief and underhanded techniques used by the Repubs, but I think that ultimately that benefitted Hillary (e.g Rush's command to keep her alive).

Other than that, fairly fair diary. Good job. Though, I hope you come around soon and realise the result isn't as bad as you think. :)


by Archer2 on Wed May 21, 2008 at 0